The Test Set: Episodes

Joe Cheng is the CTO of Posit and the creator of Shiny. He joins Michael and Hadley to talk about why he almost walked away from AI work entirely over ethics concerns and what it takes to lead a team that didn't necessarily choose you. Plus, why saying yes to everyone is a worse strategy than it sounds. Bonus: Hadley calls out Joe's people-pleasing in real time.

Caitlin Colgrove is the CTO of Hex, the data workspace for building and sharing data projects using SQL and Python that somehow counts a Sweetgreen chef as a power user. She joins Michael, Hadley, and Isabel to talk about what AI agents actually get wrong in data work (it's not the hallucinations, it's supreme overconfidence), why data teams aren't going anywhere, and how she thinks about building products for humans and agents at the same time.

Alex Hillman built one of America's first co-working spaces, wrote a business book in tweets, and recently handed his inbox to a Claude Code agent — not to draft emails, but to notice when a friendship is going cold. In this episode, Alex, Michael, Wes, and Hadley dig into marketing for people who hate marketing, what 20 years of email reveals about your relationships, and why the hardest part of AI-assisted coding was always the part before you wrote a single line.

Mike Bostock made D3 when the browser was still a joke. He built bl.ocks when people needed somewhere to share their work. Now he's building Observable — reactive notebooks with an AI that actually looks at what it made. In this episode: the three-GIF bar chart that launched 25 years of viz, why open source needs both intrinsic and extrinsic motivation, and why an agent that can't see its own output is likely to be confidently wrong.

Paige Bailey is a developer relations engineering lead at Google DeepMind, a geophysicist-turned-AI-engineer who was once told by her professors that building open-source libraries was a waste of time. We talk about her path from planetary science to TensorFlow, why statisticians have a hidden edge in the age of AI, and what it means to be a curious generalist when the cost of building software is approaching zero. Bonus: installing solar-powered silent-film birdhouses as street art in San Francisco.

Benn Stancil built Mode Analytics, spent a decade in the data trenches, and now writes some of the sharpest, funniest essays in the data world. On The Test Set, he talks about the cultural shift from Nate Silver to Rick Rubin why AI might kill the analytics dashboard, and what happens when a thousand startups all build the same thing. Plus: boy bands as a model for collaboration, and why the best creative work starts with cheating.

dbt Labs CEO Tristan Handy drops into The Test Set to map the fault lines between the data science world and the enterprise data world — and explain why analytics engineers are basically pissed-off data analysts who decided to organize the bookshelf. We get into SQL's glow-up, the community magic of dbt Slack, what AI agents mean for data warehouses, and why everyone's building iOS apps with Claude now.

Nell Thomas has spent two decades in data — from equity research to the DNC to Facebook to leading a 400-person data org at Shopify. She walks Michael and Wes through the modern data stack role by role, gets honest about what AI is and isn't changing about data work, and admits the semantic layer has been her greatest leadership failure. Plus: Sneakers gets the respect it deserves.

Phillip Cloud has been shaping the Python data ecosystem since the early pandas days — and he has *opinions*. Now a principal engineer at NVIDIA leading the Ibis project, Phillip talks about how he stumbled into open source via an eye movement lab, why he prefers his coding agents cold and emotionless, and what happens when you ask an LLM for woodworking trig. Plus: terminal user interfaces, the file hierarchy standard hot take nobody asked for, and the pineapple-on-pizza hill he's willing to die on.

Charlie Marsh built Ruff, uv, and Ty — the tools that mass-fixed Python's worst pain points. Now he's grappling with what happens when agents start writing most of the code. In this episode, Charlie gets real about his team trusting his PRs less, the gnarly middle of coding with agents, and whether Python is even the right language for an agentic future. It's honest, a wee existential, and deeply relatable if you ship code for a living.

Alenka Frim went from teaching yoga full-time to becoming a committer and PMC Member on Apache Arrow. In this episode, Alenka joins The Test Set hosts to talk about how Arrow grew from spec to critical infrastructure, and why she started contributing to a project she had never even used. She reflects on imposter syndrome, the discipline of showing up (on the mat and in GitHub), and how agents are changing what it means to write code. Plus: managing 4,000 open issues without losing your mind.

Emily Riederer writes Python with an R accent, and we’re all comfortable with it. In this episode, Emily reflects on her journey through R, Python, and SQL — from lessons learned in averaging default values (oops, we're not all rich!) to discovering that column selectors are way cooler than they sound. She weighs in on the delicate art of learning in public, why frustration often makes the best teacher, and how to find your niche by solving the boring problems. Oh, Oh, and the crew casually drops that she's keynoting posit::conf 2026!

Rebecca Barter, senior data scientist at Arine and adjunct assistant professor at the University of Utah, refuses to work on things she doesn’t care about. Lucky for us, she cares about a lot, most of all impact. In this episode, Rebecca joins The Test Set to talk about learning fast, building better tools, and staying motivated and adaptable.

She shares how moving between R, Python, SQL, and dashboards reshaped how she thinks about expertise. Plus a reflection on her recent posit::conf talk, "AI: Hype, Help, or Hindrance."

You’ve probably used Narwhals without realizing it. It’s the compatibility layer helping apps and libraries like Plotly play nice with Pandas, Polars, Arrow, and more — while keeping computation native instead of converting everything to Pandas. In this episode, Marco Gorelli explains how his weekend experiment turned into essential ecosystem infrastructure and why data types, not APIs, are where interoperability gets tricky. Plus what it takes to build trust and community around an open-source project.

In this episode, we’re joined by Kelly Bodwin — candy corn defender, board game enthusiast, and Associate Professor of Statistics and Data Science at Cal Poly. We discuss her path from English and French to statistics, how she builds teaching tools and navigates AI in the classroom, and what it takes to keep a programming community weird in the best possible way.

This episode is Part 2 of our conversation with James Blair. He explains how he found his “accidental perfect fit” as a solutions engineer and how that role became a pipeline into product management. Get a peek into the AI-powered tooling he’s now building for the Posit ecosystem, and hear how he’s using Claude Code, Positron Assistant, and DataBot to generate synthetic, industry-specific demos on the fly — plus, why the real magic is keeping humans firmly in the loop.

In Part 1 of our conversation with James Blair, we trace his delightfully non-linear path from childhood robotics dreams to journalism to R, with a few stops in between. We hear about the Shiny app that changed his career, plus a candid roundtable with Michael, Hadley, and Wes about whether a data-science master’s still pays off in the age of AI.

In part two of our conversation with Julia Silge, we discuss how work actually ships: the boundaries, the glue, and the tools that turn noise into signal. From there, we go macro and wonder what the LLM era means for humanity’s contributions, plus how licensing is evolving to protect sustainability without abandoning openness.

In part one of our conversation with Julia Silge, astronomer-turned–data science leader, we explore why data science needs a different kind of IDE. Julia takes us inside Positron, Posit's next-generation, data-scientist-first environment, and unpacks the day-to-day realities that make data science work unlike software engineering. Along the way, we get a first-hand account of a legendary pineapple-pizza protest and how to juggle multiple projects at once.

For this one, we turn the mic around. Wes McKinney takes over the interviewer's chair to chat with his co-host, Michael Chow. Michael's a principal software engineer at Posit, but he started out studying how people think — literally, with a PhD in cognitive psychology. Somewhere along the way, he got hooked on data science, helped build adaptive learning tools at DataCamp, and now spends his days thinking about how to make Python easier to use and more fun.

Michael, Hadley, and Wes welcome Roger Peng, professor of statistics and data science at UT Austin and co-host of Not So Standard Deviations. Together they trace Roger’s journey from early R adopter to pioneering online educator and prolific podcaster. The conversation ranges from the accidental rise of “data science” as a field, to the tension between research papers and software maintenance, to what makes for meaningful, lasting creative work.

In this conversation, Mine Çetinkaya-Rundel, data science educator at Duke University and Posit, joins Michael, Hadley and Wes to talk about teaching data science at a time when AI can write the code for you. Mine shares her journey from actuarial science to academia, the teaching philosophy behind the “whole game” approach, and her experiments using LLMs for instant student feedback. Along the way, the group dives into the joys and risks of coding by hand, the role of open source in the classroom, and what it’s like to work across both the R and Python communities.

In Part 2 of our conversation with Wes McKinney, we go beyond the code and into the mission-driven world of open source funding, community-building, and product strategy. Wes talks about what it takes to make critical tools like Arrow sustainable — from pitching to mavericks at Two Sigma to navigating the politics of Apache Software Foundation governance. Also, Wes gives a peek behind the curtain on the origins of Positron. And, yeah, metal.

Wes McKinney's fingerprints are all over the modern data stack — from inventing Pandas to co-creating Arrow. But before all that, Wes was organizing speedrun communities and hacking together better ways to wrangle datasets in finance. In this conversation, he shares his origin story and what makes good tools good.

Before Hadley Wickham became a pillar of modern data science, he was a spreadsheet-loving teenager making databases for his dad’s job. In this episode, he reflects on the early days of his involvement with R, the birth of tidyverse, and how real-world unpredictability — like a bear in a field — shapes data science.